SaaS Partnerships Team Lead

Deep-dive into co-selling strategy with Daniel from Quantum Metric and Noemie from Reveal

Alex Glenn
January 10, 2022
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SaaS Partnerships Team Lead
January 10, 2022

Deep-dive into co-selling strategy with Daniel from Quantum Metric and Noemie from Reveal

Adding value to something that they are doing as a business.

We work hard to bring you multi-perspective conversations on strategies we know most struggle with. This episode is no exception. I was able to enlist Daniel Lancioni, Partnerships Director (EMEA/APAC) at Quantum Metric, and Noémie Goubin, Head of Partner Success Strategy at Reveal who also led partnerships for AB Tasty, to find out how to get co-selling to work - for tech and agency partners. 

  1. Intros / background
  2. Experience co-selling overview
  3. What is account mapping and co-selling to most org's
  4. What do Daniel and Noemie say to each key stakeholder when approaching them about co-selling
  5. How Daniel suggests tech teams deal with the nuances of approaching digital agency partners to co-sell
  6. Who needs to be involved to succeed in a routine co-selling motion with partners
  7. The MVP of a co-selling motion with an agency who has never done it
  8. What prevents most companies from co-selling 
  9. Is there ever internal conflict
  10. How can a tech company align partnerships with the sales to prevent conflict 
  11. The numbers of Co-selling - value for Quantum Metric in terms of pipeline
  12. And, how valuable is starting to pave the way with co-marketing to warm leads up before you start co-selling
  13. Co-selling KPIs and OKRs
  14. Recommended process for getting started account mapping with partners


We hope you enjoy this discussion!


Sendoso - The leading sending platform.

Partnerstack - Partner tracking and payouts.

Reveal - A free account mapping solution.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Noemie: You can prioritize as well. Like the partnership that you want to build, depending on the business overlap, make myself team Andrew stand Nike's the agency about, and not only like everything related to testing or personalization, but like what they're doing in general, 

[00:00:14] Daniel: what is the size of the practice that an agency can build around your solution?

[00:00:20] The idea has come from the agency at something they're proud of an. I know, adding value to something that they are doing as a business, 

[00:00:27] Alex: come back to another. And I say this all the time, make them famous podcast. We bring 

[00:00:34] Noemie: multiple 

[00:00:34] Alex: perspectives to talk about strategy, only podcasts

[00:00:42] Noemie: partnerships 

[00:00:42] Alex: is can you talk to digital agencies? And we talked to tech companies. So depending on where you are at in your org and vertical and career I hope this is relevant and valuable. For today's topic is co-selling and how to make co-selling work. We invited Daniel from tech giant quantum metrics.

[00:01:01] He runs partnerships over there and Noemi who heads up partner success for reveal and. Head of EMA Mia, sorry. I always mess up that acronym. AMEA partnerships for AB tasty and other tech giant Noemi and Daniel used to work together. And co-selling routines now, Noemi is using co-selling to build her partners.

[00:01:25] Pipeline and Daniel's using it to build sales, of course, through the partnerships channel, but he's doing it with digital agencies and other tech companies. So we have a very interesting conversation. We're going to talk about account mapping, routines, what it is, how to get started with it with each type of persona.

[00:01:43] Who the stakeholders should be when you start mapping accounts and getting into co-selling motions, what is the minimum viable product, how to dip your toe in the water how to prevent the inevitable internal conflict, getting this stuff going some of the numbers and what you should expect, KPIs, all of that fun stuff.

[00:02:02] But as usual, we do have a sponsor read. I encourage you to listen to it because these aren't. Tech companies that knocked on our door and wanted to get in front of our audience. We went out to these three companies and asked them for sponsorship because they are partner enablement platforms that we love and use and suggest you do the same.

[00:02:22] It's in DOSO partner, stack and reveals. Go ahead and listen in. And then the episode will start just after that. Enjoy first partner stack partner stack is the number one rated partner platform for software companies. Partner stack works with top companies like Unbalanced, who was just on the podcast, inner calm web flow.

[00:02:44] Some of the companies that use partner staff to make sure that their partners are happy. We advise many of our post-program market fit clients to demo partner stack when they are ready to scale revenue through partnerships. We also talk a lot about co-selling in this podcast. We talk a lot about co-selling between agencies and tech, as well as tech to tech.

[00:03:06] And one of the platforms that really shines for both sides of our ecosystem, the agencies and the technology is reveal reveal, just launched version two. They have a, an amazing UI and UX and our agencies. And this is the thing with these co-selling partnerships is if one of the two sides does not have the tool that you're trying to use, you can't effectively Cosell.

[00:03:34] So we recommend reveal number one, because it's a great product. Number two, because you can integrate CRM for free and map data without hitting a paywall, many agencies will stop when you try to refer them to a tool that is too expensive. And and that will crush your ability to effectively Cosell with agencies in particular.

[00:03:55] It's, it's super important to check out reveal book a demo it's free. Why not? SIM DOSO is our third sponsor of this show. They've been an awesome sponsor and awesome. For us in many ways, there are also in one of our programs, but some DOSO is the top sales and partnerships teams. Number one choice for gifting and sending.

[00:04:18] They are the leading sending platforms and DOSO is the most effective way for revenue teams to generate. More revenue and stand out and engage their strategic points of contact throughout the partner journey. So if you're a tech team listening to this, I'm sure your salespeople are using San DOSO or.

[00:04:41] Something similar, but check out what they have to offer. The, just released a number of new features, both for partners as well as for end users and it's slick and it is fast and it is robust. So please check out some DOSO check out reveal and check out partner stack links below and as usual. Enjoy this episode, welcome to the show.

[00:05:08] So today is another touch and deep dive, more of a deep dive on co-selling, how you work with digital agencies and a deeper capacity of the partnership and co-selling and account mapping with those agencies is a big part of it. So Daniel, we'll start out with an introduction to you. I did the general introduction to the episode, but why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your experience with co-selling.

[00:05:32] Daniel: Who partnerships across a Mia here with quantum metrics. So that's technology alliances with digital experience platforms, customer data platforms, voice of customer solutions. And many will be on that as well as who agency and system integration partners who are going to kind of help pre-sales post-sales around any of our deals that we're running prior to concern.

[00:05:55] I worked at a company called braise for two years running the agency practice there. And then prior to that, I've worked agency side for most of my life, working at media com as my last stint as a beach. 

[00:06:09] Alex: Yeah, I love, I love talking to people that have been on the agency side too. It's always a good conversation.

[00:06:13] So no Noemi, you've got a great background in this as well, coming from the tech side, and now you're on the product side, but tell us a little bit about yourself. 

[00:06:25] Noemie: So so as you can tell with my accent, I'm busy in Paris. I'm now a partner success manager. I reveals so reveal is a collaborative, collaborative cross platform.

[00:06:35] We help a company Cosell, thanks to account mapping. Priority to that. I used to work at AB tasty, the head of partnerships for Southern Europe. So basically I work with my local tech partners. So marketing and entities tool CDPs as well. Frontal matrix was one of my partners but as well as agencies so marketing marketing at agencies, but as well, consulting firms in the.

[00:07:00] Alex: And I love it. Daniel, back to you for this question, if you can kind of touch on a little bit about what you perceive as the practice of co-selling and then if there's any relevance and how it's changed from when you were at a digital agency, did you even do it? Was it a thing? Versus obviously you're doing it heavily now and what it really means to you.

[00:07:20] So in your definition, in your perception, what, what really is co-selling. 

[00:07:25] Daniel: Well, it's definitely grown in maturity over the last sort of five or six years. When, when I worked agency side, it was sometimes very tough to get a clear read on even what clients we were working with even getting a client list.

[00:07:41] And anytime we did get a client list we were, we found ourselves in the world of account mapping in Google sheets or Microsoft Excel using field look up formulas and having. Pull reports all the time and update stuff. And it was very, very slow, very, very cumbersome. And then when I joined braise about two or three years ago, I learned what CRM was.

[00:08:03] It felt like a, felt like a gift from God to have a platform where you could see every client and every piece of information that you physically needed to know. And then to have a, an account mapping solution, like a reveal tapped on to that platform to be able to quickly align. Your accounts against your partner's accounts without having to write a single formula in Excel without having to pull a single report.

[00:08:28] And just having that at the tip of your fingertips in a really easy to use UI just changed the game. And it just means that any time one of my partners is selling into a piece of business or anytime I'm sending into a piece of business that my partner cares about. Both of us know that that's going on and we can have that conversation and we can discuss whether we want to engage in a co-sell motion.

[00:08:51] And what Cosell emotion for me really is. It's more than just introducing someone to a piece of business. It's a with a technology partner. It's can we do a joint demonstration around our two solutions combined around how they create this one? Plus one equals 3, 4, 5, whatever number you want to select story that goes to market.

[00:09:12] And then with an agency partner it's yes. Our solution adds loads of value in a cell. What are the change management processes? What's the structure, what's the documentation. How do I evaluate whether this acquisition of this technology has been a good one in a year's time? That's all part of that.

[00:09:30] Co-selling motion to get that more strategic view. That's often given by an agency. So from that. Co-selling it's more just an introduction. It's both parties working in tandem to Lance and mutually beneficial. 

[00:09:43] Alex: Perfect. That's perfect. No, I mean you had the experience from the tech side. Now you have to sell and promote and work with a co-selling solution, a platform reveal, and I'm sure things have gotten more interesting for you and, and you've, you've got the different lens.

[00:09:59] So what is co-selling to you? 

[00:10:02] Noemie: Yes. I've been like Danielle, when I arrived at AB tasty, it was like really complicated, you know, to just like identify the right opportunity that I could work on with my partner. And so Cosell Maisie key. So when I was actually one of the first reveal users, so when I started using.

[00:10:20] It became much more easier to identify this opportunity, but again, like the, the, the idea of Cosa, like say Daniel is not only about, you know, just picking one account and like try to like sign a deal on both sides is really to make sure that these accounts, the right one that like could benefit that you from the product as well as the all the work done by the agencies or the consulting firm Getting, you know their consulting type of work that is re that were really, really important for AB tasty because of Jesse, when we had to sell a product to like a company that is not maturing through most testing, it's really good to have experts that help us do that.

[00:11:00] And not only understand that they are. Like implement the product, but really like have Teamworks around the product as well. Have like expertise on the product has the practices and so on. So I think that Cosell is definitely pick the right account, make sure that accounts and work on like what you are

[00:11:21] Alex: Yeah. And that's kinda what I wanted to hear from you. So it's different perspectives. You guys both have the same experience on the tech side. You guys are both targeting mid-market enterprise companies at AB tasty and braise. So you guys have some similar experience, then you have different experiences before and after, which is super unique and interesting.

[00:11:39] And Daniel, this is a conversation that want to start with you and then we'll go back. No. I mean, I want to talk to the different personas involved in a co-selling equation. So that, that article I just chatted you guys is a is a newsletter that I just published about co-selling with digital agencies.

[00:11:55] I wanted you to see that because this is a tough conversation for many. Either tech companies to have, but Noemi, you probably have it from a different perspective when you're talking about your solution. But when you're talking to each different persona, you have to approach it in a different way.

[00:12:11] So I want to do a little bit of not role play, but asking Daniel first, how you approach it. Digital agency that may not have an active co-selling practice internally. They probably have heard the term before. They probably can make sense of it. Maybe their sales team has done. Either before or after or whenever.

[00:12:29] But you still have to have that conversation of what is it and what is it going to look like and what do we need to do to get it done? And then Noemi, I'll go back to you to say, Hey, what do you say to a CRO or a CEO when you're saying, Hey, co-selling needs to be in your organization. Here's why, so a little bit of a sales conversation because partner managers have to sell their teams on it.

[00:12:50] So we kind of want to help frame that conversation. So Daniel, you're talking to me about. CEO or head of something at a digital agency and you're approaching me. And you want to start co-selling you want to start account mapping and then getting into a co-selling routine. So what are some of the things that you want to talk about first?

[00:13:07] Maybe some boxes that you have to have checked, anything relevant, talking to digital agencies about co-selling 

[00:13:15] Daniel: with agencies. I look at agencies in two ways, from a person from a breadth perspective. And then secondly, a depth perspective and the breadth persona is this the CEO persona, like you're saying, or it could be, it could be a practice lead.

[00:13:32] So in a lot of consultancies, it might be your head of analytics or head of e-commerce or head of digital, your head of performance, your head of UX. It might be someone like that. Who's got a very broad, horizontal view across the business. And then from a depth perspective, It's about having conversations with people who are vertical leads or client leads.

[00:13:51] They're the group plan partners, account directors, managing partners, those types of titles that would be living in an agency. And, and those types of folks will look after one or two accounts in terms of starting a co-selling conversation with that horizontal lead. Ideally, I mean, we, we often hope that a lot of, a lot of the mature agencies that we're speaking to already have some of those practices in place because of the.

[00:14:15] Salesforce and Adobe is an IBM's that have come before us and have created these, these kind of muscle memory around how to build a proper, proper Cosell strategy with the technology partners. So actually is easier to start to talk about it than probably would have been 10, 15 years ago. But the big piece that I'm finding is always a key thing is being able to articulate.

[00:14:42] What is the size of the practice that an agency can build around your solution? And Jay McBain, who's like a principal analyst at Forrester for channel Alliance is really, really smart guy, produces some of the best research out there. And he was looking at some of the Salesforce ecosystem reports and they're, they're talking about their business having a, a five X multiplier and every dollar spent on Salesforce, like another five X of that.

[00:15:05] So $5 is going out. To the ecosystem. So it's about as apartment leader. Are you able to articulate what your multiplier effect is? And then global to go to that CEO and say, I think, I think we can do 500, $600,000 worth of SAS revenue with you guys. I know I've got two X multiplier, my business, and that means $1.2 million in services.

[00:15:30] I reckon you're gonna need to put this amount of people through training. I think it's going to take this long. Are you interested? And just moving things to revenue conversation as quickly as possible. It's going to help me and move 

[00:15:41] Alex: that forward. Yes. Shout out to Jay McBain and all the work he's done to make this make sense for everybody on the number side Noemi.

[00:15:48] So looking at it from the value add perspective, you have to partner with people like me and Daniel, and you have to work with us. Reveals name out there at this point, but, you know, put your SAS hat on for a second or, or even your, any, any hat you want, but we want to talk to a CEO and a CRO about the value of co-selling.

[00:16:11] So you kind of have to put it into the ROI equation, of course. But they probably have. Other things that they're thinking about compliance being one of them and some of the data aspects that you and I talked about before we started recording. So what are some of the conversations that you have typically when you're talking to a CRO and a CEO about co-selling?

[00:16:33] Noemie: So I'd say that first what I would say first that, you know, when like an agency is trying to speak to a client that is new, they have to be. Pain to make sure that in the end they will bring value to this company. But sometimes it can be a bit tough to create this pain because they're like, no, you know, I don't understand, I know exactly how to handle this or that.

[00:16:54] And it's really a much more practical when it comes to a tool. You don't have like an STD tool at the moment. And so you should have one because it can breeze you like X amount of conversion on your website and stuff. Whereas like co-selling, we can really like pinpoint what like is missing in their tech, tech stack.

[00:17:15] And then like, all the agencies has to do is just like to bring the value around the product, like sharing again, like the expertise of the consultants and so on. But I would say that it's always easier to start a campaign to start a discussion was, you know, a fact. Currently, like you are not using this tool.

[00:17:33] You are not, you do not have like a, your, your tech stack is not complete and you should like increase this or that. And then like the agencies come with extra cheese and say, but the thing is that you don't have people internally to manage this and we do. And so now, like the pain is created. And so I think that for the client, it makes much more sense because at the variable.

[00:17:52] It was a fact. And they, I think was already thinking about like a bang this tool, but it's nuts thinking about maybe, you know, buying services around it. So this is the, the way I would approach, I think is yo to, to to, to, to, to, to really make them understand the importance of co-sell. The second point around that I, and compliance is that, of course, like as soon as I started working with an agency, like we signed an NDA.

[00:18:15] To make sure that we protect, like everything that we're sharing, especially about an account. So for example, at AB tasty, whenever I already had like a, I already knew this account and like map this account and so on, it was really important for me to have this NDA in place of Cruz. To make sure that all the information that I share with my identities were protected.

[00:18:36] But as soon as the NDA was signed I was like, okay. So with myself team, we've done like three months, like talking to these guys and you don't even know them. So basically like all that we done. Like you don't have to do it. We can give you the name. We can give you like the context we can tell you, like who is the decision maker with their budgets and so on.

[00:18:55] And so I think this is definitely very valuable in the process of Cosell and it's like, it can, it is true the other way around. I need, sometimes agencies already worked with these guys and like, I already know your account and they just have to say, okay. So when I worked with them, like he was the decision maker and like, I know that there were this pain.

[00:19:13] And so I think that AB tasty could solve this pain and. So yeah, I definitely recommend, as soon as you decide that this agency is like re in your space and that they have the expertise that you, you require just like talk about the partner program, how, like, it can really bring success today to the company, sign the NDA and release targets, like bringing value, like sharing context and context around accounts.

[00:19:40] Alex: Love it. I love it. Yeah. I think that's the important equation that just getting going, you know, and just, just saying, you know what, let's, let's protect ourselves NDA, but let's just get going. Let's get let's, let's try it out. And maybe it's maybe it'll be a practice your team will enjoy and we'll get a bunch of value from, but let's give it a few months and see what happens.

[00:19:58] And Daniel, there are nuances when you're approaching. Digital agencies, as you're very familiar with with this routine we hear different you know, different rebuttals, I guess you could say you've probably heard all the same ones that I've heard. And one of the things that we try to talk to our tech teams about when they're approaching agencies is you have to kind of fit it into their mindset and their life.

[00:20:23] Thought if you will and how they perceive what they need to do to win new business, which is different than a SAS company, trying to win new business. Right. And the first thing in the agency's mind is, is this going to be good for my current clients? And how is this going to fit in our. Current sales agenda, which typically is traffic and conversions.

[00:20:42] We have content and SEO and PPC, and we convert those on our site. And then we have our strategic call. So how does it fit into what we're doing today so that I'm not telling my team, we've got to change our model and start doing things a different way. And one of the words that we use is attribution.

[00:20:59] You know, if you're using a co-selling solution, like reveal. Attribution is one of those key terms that agencies understand. They have to attribute everything they're doing. So if you're going to do a big event together or some sort of content webinar, ebook, white paper case study. Yeah. That's great for co-marketing.

[00:21:18] You've got traffic and conversions in that, but how are we attributing the true value of the stuff that we're doing? Well, map accounts, see what the overlap looks like today. And then see what it looks like after we publish whatever it is we're going to publish. And if that shared overlap goes up increases well, that's good indication that it's working, whatever we're doing is working.

[00:21:42] Yes. You can put UTMs and you can track stuff with links and you know, you know, a lot about that being embraced. But the shared accounts, you know, all of the stuff that's coming in in general Daniel, let's talk about the nuances and if you're talking to the tech companies listening, what should they really know about co-selling with agencies and how can they be more effective at striking up those relationships?

[00:22:04] It 

[00:22:04] Daniel: sounds really strange, but you almost don't one apartment to be selling your business. So, you know, I don't, I don't want agencies to be going out and going, by the way, you guys, you need to buy content metrics. That that like, it's great. Just don't buy it. Like that's, that's not, that's not the story. The story is, you're trying to find a proposition that the agency already has in the market that you can then attach yourself.

[00:22:27] It's a piece of IP that agency owns. They're very proud of. They spend a lot of time building out and you can replace a component of that or add something on. So in my world of analytics, They might be an agency pushing out a digital experience or the proposition where they're going to go into a client, run a three month project and I'll analyze it or their digital property.

[00:22:51] And they're going to need some digital tracking underneath that plan dependent in there. Well, to AB tasty, it might be new doing a, doing a sort of experimentation order, like how risk averse to doing certain types of tests. What's your framework to pick what tests you're going to run. And you'll, you'll get a bunch of conversion optimization agencies out there that will go run that proposition.

[00:23:13] And they ultimately need a technology that pin, that proposition. So you don't want from a Cosell motion. You almost don't want to start from a place. That agency selling and positioning your solution. And you want them to be positioning a broader holistic approach to that client, which you are a component.

[00:23:32] And that is the most successful way to run a course on motion with an agency partner, because the idea has come from the agency. It's something they're proud of. And you're adding value to something that they aren't doing. That's an awesome 

[00:23:44] Alex: quote. So no, I mean, anything on that, and then I want to go into who needs to be involved, truly needs to be involved, who should be involved, who shouldn't be involved, I guess would be a better way to frame that in a, in an act of co-selling.

[00:23:58] Noemie: No, no, no, nothing to add on that. I think that Daniella get it and definitely key. It's just exactly what I was saying to my agencies as well. Like just like a sell what you're good at. And I say, what I'm good at? And this is basically what is co-selling. 

[00:24:13] Alex: I love it. Okay. And so when you're talking to a team about co-selling they may have different you know, different perceptions of it.

[00:24:19] Well, I need to bring all this in and I need to attach all that. I need to have all these things going but what really is necessary to have a successful co-selling when you talk to teams, what do you tell them they need to have and who needs to be involved? 

[00:24:33] Noemie: I think that it's very important that Everything is consistent whenever you talk to a client.

[00:24:37] So you should definitely like when it come to, to co sell to client align before. So what I used to do at AB tasty ease, like really make sure that we had like the common joint value proposition, you know, was like a deck like where I can like really understand, I can make my sales team understand, like ease the identity.

[00:24:55] And not only like everything related to testing or personalization, but like what they're doing in general and then like deep dive a bit into their different expertise and the way they could like the way they did it within accounts with like use cases and so on and how, like it can be plugged with the value prop AB tasty value proposition, but as well as how.

[00:25:17] At values ready to like the AB tasty junk, the ADTC value proposition. So I think like the joint value proposition deck is really important internally as well as externally. So as soon as you start, you really decide to you know, work with was w was in that tenancy. You have to make sure that you are aligned on the value proposition, I'd say, and that your sales team is aligned as well.

[00:25:42] And so, yeah, definitely before, like talking to a client again, like make sure that this deck is consistent and that you are like talking the same language and like going into the same direction with the single and with basically the benefit of the client. 

[00:25:58] Alex: I love it. And part of this. Sort of an MVP, a deployment of a co-selling motion.

[00:26:03] So if you're talking to a typical digital agency that we work with, you know, they're 50 employees they don't have a partner manager yet, or maybe someone's kind of owning it, but they also own something else, sales or marketing. And they, they hear new things and it just immediately thinks they immediately think.

[00:26:21] I got to create these assets, the white label, this, and I have to school my team on what's going on. And then I got to meet new people over at your organization and get trained up and all of a sudden. And it's just some costs. They immediately thinks on cost and they say, no, you know, knee jerk reaction.

[00:26:37] But Daniel, I want to hear what you say to these agencies that feel like it's going to be a sunk cost and feel like they don't have the resources to do co-selling in a way that no other. Talked about where there's lots of lots going on. There's a very long sales cycle. There's lots of asset needs and all the stuff that is inherent in a larger scale co-selling motion.

[00:27:00] But is there an MVP, is there something that we can do to dip our toe in the water, so to speak and start to win these smaller agencies, these ones that are super valuable, still strategic, but haven't done it yet. 

[00:27:13] Daniel: So some, some people who look at some tech partners that come to them and approach them around, like build a practice around me and only see that as a sunk cost, some of those people just can't be converted.

[00:27:25] It's, it's, it's the way they want to work. And you have to be understanding of that. The, the most kind of powerful personas that, that I've spoken with are people that see. Benefit in our own career from what your platform can do. So they see an opportunity or a clear path to revenue for their business.

[00:27:47] And they would that see personal gain for them, whether that's a promotion, whether that's them getting to meet into running something that I've never been able to run before. So I think the key thing. Well, I'm trying to articulate here is there are certain people that you're going to speak to that are just never going to change their mind, and you need to work out quickly who they are, so you can win some time back.

[00:28:10] And then there are some people out there that really see that what you want your business can do for them personally. And then you attach yourself to that. But in terms of like dip in the toe proposition, that's the strongest thing that I am seeing all the time is around proof of concept. So how can you.

[00:28:29] Provide your platform. 'cause the, the challenges we're going to upon the programs today is, you know, you guys, I need 10 consultants to go through a hundred hours of training to get all these certifications. And before you know, that that agency is sung a hundred to a thousand hours of training and they, they're not able to see that single piece of revenue yet, but with a, with a, a kind of a POC approach, you can take a more learn on the job approach with that agency.

[00:28:55] So you say, look, you can leverage my platform for. 1530 days, whatever the POC land needs to be during that PAC, we're going to train you on how to implement and run and use the platform. And then after that, once happy, let's move on to a paid engagement. So it's just about how do you reduce the friction from a cost perspective and from an upfront training perspective, to make it as easy for the agency to say.

[00:29:24] There's no risk here. We can try and test. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. If it does brilliant, we can go and build this new practice from there. So those are the ways that we are really articulating to, to particularly agencies, how they can start to test some sales motions. 

[00:29:41] Alex: Great answer. Great answer.

[00:29:42] Yeah, so like to your point, some people it's just not a good time. It's not the right time and they don't have the org that would be effective for both sides to a co-selling motion. But the ones that may there is sort of that approach that I think you can't. We'll start with account mapping.

[00:29:57] And no, I mean, I want to, I want to hear your perspective on this and give them that at least glimpse appears what's going on. And I think anybody in a CRO CEO had a sales, especially position is going to look at that as opportunity and they're going to want it, you know, no matter what so at least start with, let's see what's going on.

[00:30:19] Well, let's run a couple co-marketing campaigns. See what changes and and sell that just to glimpse the idea of knowing more than, you know, today, and then anybody that's on the sales revenue side is gonna look at the opportunity and they're going to come back to you and say, how do we get in front of those people?

[00:30:35] What can we do? And then you can start the strategy conversations and back into it. No, I mean, anything on that. And then the addition to that question is what do you use. See as the biggest conflict internally when teams are deliberating and they come back to you with a new. What are those nos and who typically is the one person that you need to convince overall to get past that?

[00:30:59] Noemie: What I would add on what Dan just stated that it's pretty, yes. Important to have like two work who's a partner was, you know, POC. So usually when I started working with an agency and I thought that it would make sense in terms of the value proposition, the ID is to sign an NDA and run the first account mapping tool to see the business overlap.

[00:31:19] And usually When it comes to the product site or the identity side, there is always some prospect that you're chasing. And so you will always like find value in your partner's portfolio. Basically, once you've done that, it's very important to me that you identify the right opportunity that you want to work on because these first opportunity, she will be like your first proof of concept.

[00:31:40] And we'll like bring like a. You know, the validation of your partnerships. And so as soon as a client signed for this partnership between ABTC and an agency, like you have like the proof that yes, we can start working on certification. We can start working on it on a, more like a deeper partner program together and make it sure that it's successful in song.

[00:32:03] So step-by-step it doesn't have to be like a really big deck was like all the joint value proposition at the very first stage of the, of the, of the relationship. Okay. And that you drove the akin mapping together, identify the right parts to cheat, make sure that you keep track, that you're watching this opportunity find your first client and then like track the numbers.

[00:32:24] As you said, that X is really important. And like we achieving reveal, like with this new features, like it's to understand how like your pipeline you know grow things to your perfect ecosystem, basically. You know how, like all the KPIs rated to each. So for example, your assess cycle, video, CT, and this kind of, you know KPIs that we track the 80 days T to really make sure that in Trinity, like everyone understood the value of the partnerships.

[00:32:53] So basically the amount of a deal that like how, like the velocity of the deal whenever a partner, when we're attached to. And basically this is what exactly would help me to talk internally to make you more extended into the agencies and say, this is the proof of why we should do Cosell. So yeah, I really used a lot of figures to make sure.

[00:33:17] Internally, as well as externally, I was avoiding all this conflict because, you know, you cannot just deny the figures that you have in front of you. So basically compare a deal where a partner and that Genesis is attached to it's, it's always bigger. It's often like like often quicker and so on.

[00:33:32] Yeah, 

[00:33:32] Alex: that's a, that's a great point. All of them. And you know, from that perspective, I mean, you're. Now selling the platform. So you have to kind of make the case of the costs. If they're, if they're on an enterprise account, even though for the listeners reveal does have a free account, you can connect to CRM and view all your accounts for free.

[00:33:50] So, but there's an enterprise account. You do have to sell it. So you have to sell the value prop of how it's going to pay for itself. That backs into the numbers questions. So, Daniel what is co-selling for you guys? What is the value of it? What does it mean for your organization? Both on a number side and just a partner enablement side.

[00:34:08] Yeah. 

[00:34:09] Daniel: So every company has a sort of a different metric blood quantum. We are planning to have about 50% of our business attached to partners throughout this year coming up. So that's a combination. I've sourced co-sale motions. And the partner brings us into a net new opportunity and we go and drive that forward.

[00:34:31] And from a, and also from an influence perspective, we are directly getting our own opportunities, whether that's remarketing or STR teams, our account execs, finding the right agency to align with and then move forward. So. We are looking for about half of our business for this year to come through the partner channel in some way, shape or form.

[00:34:50] And some of the, some of the partners that I speak to in our, in our ecosystem, they're up in sort of the ATA 5%, so really, really strong attach rate. So that's how I look at the success of the carousel motion. And also we're really starting to analyze C-SAT schools as well. So how satisfied are customers.

[00:35:12] And agencies that are providing the selling is on top of quantum versus how we provide our own services to our own customer success teams. So those sorts of seeing sat scores are going to become really, really important, crosses the business to ensure that. I do. These are at least matching if not beating what we can provide through our own internal services.

[00:35:33] And I know we kind of, we talked a little bit about conflict management on the co-sale motion, but particularly with agencies, that was the biggest conflict that any software company will, will come up against it. Kind of like provide services to my agency and not become protective of the services that I could possibly provide.

[00:35:52] Otherwise the agency is going to move on to another platform that can, that. As focused on providing the services around it, because I think, you know, the great thing about software companies, we have very high margins, but generally speaking in customer success roles tend to be more of a a much lower margin product.

[00:36:07] So if we want to protect those margins of software companies, we have to realize that our scores were of that, that service revenue to agency partners, wherever possible, 

[00:36:16] Alex: words of wisdom. Tech founders out there. I was talking to one of the largest call tracking and call recording solutions for sales teams out there.

[00:36:26] We all know the name and they were very anti partnerships for a long time. And they only just now in the last, probably three to six months started realizing that they've probably missed out and they're doubling down now and putting a lot of effort and money into it. But same, same thing. There we're a sales driven organization.

[00:36:42] They sold a sales enablement product and they were very direct, you know, direct to consumer and direct to sales. There's a lot of work still out there that are like this, but I think more and more firms are realizing the power of involving partners in that equation. Instead of building up your CS team bigger and bigger and more and more deep bringing in partners to that equation.

[00:37:03] Tell your your, your users, not your clients, but your users that you've got experts, they exist over here. And here's the directory and find one. And we'll introduce you if you need an introduction, but that's an important part. And that does dovetail nicely into the last part of this conversation that I wanted to talk about.

[00:37:20] I do want to hit on KPIs and OKR is anything relevant that we should track in this full motion, pipeline, velocity, all that fun stuff. But before that you did mention something. About warming up the leads and doing something before co-selling. So if you're going into a co-selling motion, let's say you're starting to talk to a new partner about it.

[00:37:38] And maybe a couple of months before you start actively introducing and doing the the day-to-day of co-selling, but what do you guys do over quantum metric Daniel? To warm up leads? Is there a co-marketing initiative on account-based marketing strategy that you always recommend you to. Creating something with that partner to get some brand impressions across before you start to make introductions and beyond calls and, and start to make those recommendations.

[00:38:04] What do you guys like to do? What's best practice. 

[00:38:08] Daniel: There's some, some broadens. And there's also some sort of more one-to-one orientated stuff. So broad based things include yes. Account based marketing. So. Lead lists with each other. So-so in account list with each other via, we actually use reveal as our single source of truth for those accounts.

[00:38:27] And then we can say, all right, how are you PR to the partner to protect tech partners in particular, but how are you going after these accounts? This is how we're going off to the accounts. Can we align even things like if we're exhibiting at the same expos, can we be in the same places and all those sorts of things?

[00:38:42] So that's, those are the sort of broad initiatives that we're doing. And then from a one-to-one account perspective, It is again, tends to be more on the tech partner side than the agency side. I still feel like agencies are a bit behind the curve on account mapping as a whole, and even having a CRM solution as a whole as well.

[00:39:02] But that tends to be along the lines of. Can that customer success manager for that account or that account manager or the account executive on the account on that next call they've got with the client, can they drop in the fact that they had a really interesting conversation with us and they believe that they can add value?

[00:39:20] Would they be interested in a more exploratory conversation? So they're not going hard and fast into a direct introduction straight off the bat. It's surfacing information about our business to our potential prospects. That is relatable to the partner. That's going to hopefully pay client interest and make them want to engage in a conversation.

[00:39:40] So there's the broad stuff that tends to be done through the marketing team, big ideas. And then that's a really tactical stuff, which is 80 to AA. Or I am today. Well, we were kind of really, really nitty gritty going after accounts. 

[00:39:52] Alex: Ooh, I like it. Okay. And that, that makes me want to talk a lot more about just customer insights and figuring out a good strategy, but we can boil this down to a couple of best practices, a couple of steps, and then end on KPIs.

[00:40:05] But no, I mean, what are your best practices for making sure co-selling is effective. What would you say are the main things that they have to do in order to make sure. 

[00:40:15] Noemie: Sure. So for things. So we had at ABTC, we had what we called a workstream tracker. And you know, when you say, are you Alex? I think he's really important, especially for the smallest agency is to identify which one is owning, which line within like this Pritchett basically, which is a workstream tracker.

[00:40:34] So basically I said that first you will have to understand like both. Both value proposition, then you will have to define a joint value proposition. Then you will have to maintain the joint pipeline to improve the ownership of your partner for your platform and the other way around to improve, like within yourself team, the value proposition of your, your partners.

[00:40:57] You will have to define. Like I think a joint marketing strategy. So what type of co-marketing activity that you want to do for the next quarter or the coming weeks and salon and what type of assets. But what I think is really important is to define like owner, like within each of this line to make sure that, you know, like the work is really like, not only on one hand person basically, but like indifferent.

[00:41:21] So the, the ownership is a, is a hold held by different people within the agency. But yeah, and, and on the KPI side I'd say that we had a score card card at AB tasty to make sure again, that we measure the success of our partner program. So basically it was not only about sales performance.

[00:41:42] So the number of source opportunity, the number of qualified did the number. Leads when one but as well on like everything related to product and platform engagement, everything related to customer success, everything really, to, to marketing. And so basically we calculated the number of case study that we did.

[00:41:58] We've done with our partners, the social, social posting, the MQL generated after these co-branded events, like on the customer success side, we calculated the number of like the, the. The average, like customer satisfaction on common clients, like our renewal rates. I were upset. Trust, sell whenever we had a client that we worked with an agency's with and the everything related to the product and the on the product side was like like the agencies were using our product and basically we're certified on the product.

[00:42:31] So a lot of KPI that we're not only related to sales performance, but I think that we're really important to measure the, the, the, the success of our co-selling setting strategy. And yeah, and I could talk about deal that OCT and ecosystem quantified it and everything that the, 

[00:42:47] Alex: no, I like the idea of, of, of keeping that scorecard.

[00:42:50] Tallying up, you know, what you've done with each partner, five points for this two points for that. So are you do it? And then at the end of the day, what you get is, you know what, this partner is driving more pipeline revenue, and they have a score of eight meaning we'd done more with that partner on the co-marketing side, I guess is sort of how I understood 

[00:43:09] Noemie: that we had like objective for the next quarter or the next year or so.

[00:43:14] Alex: Like that a lot. And that's a tough thing that you, I don't think you can programmatically track that you kind of have to manually go in there and say, you know what? We publish this. That's one of these that qualifies as this. And we add points to that. But Daniel, I just chatted you some questions about how you enrich and what you do with the data, the unknown data.

[00:43:33] So when you map accounts, you've got your overlaps, which are known, you've got your side, which are of course known. Then there's their side that you don't know. That's the goal. That's the value. That's the opportunity. What do you do on that data before you make any sort of requests or actions or do anything to it, do you enrich it in any way?

[00:43:52] Do you run customer insights on it? Do you want you to 

[00:43:58] Daniel: be successful? A software company has to have some. You know, ideal customer profile ICP as it's often condensed down to. So generally your, your icing peers is built around some specific metrics and how you price your price, your business.

[00:44:12] So we look at platforms like similar web for, for web traffic. We look at things like Apptopia for monthly active users, daily active users, retention graphs. They've got some great data, right? For any businesses that, that, for some reason, I'm using a solution like reveal and we need to know what they are using, or we'll use a platform that I've built with to see what, what SDK is, what JavaScripts they have installed.

[00:44:35] So we can actually evaluate how mature is this business? Do they buy other enterprise grade technology or have they own. Degan analytics and other free solutions on their platform. So those are, those are sort of three go-to platforms that we tend to leverage really heavily just to see how does that client fit into our term or.

[00:44:57] Alex: I love it. I love it. Okay, perfect. And then no, I mean, this question is for you. I wanted to hit on this before we ended, but if partner managers listening, want to use account mapping to develop their channel. So this isn't selling the product, this is selling the partnership totally different on the strategy side, on the operation side on everything.

[00:45:15] But you mentioned that you guys use. In order to build your channel partner. So how does that work? How does it work and what are the different nuances if you're using it to build your channel pipeline versus using it to build your user 

[00:45:28] Noemie: pipeline. So I'd say that. On reveal. What is important to understand it, that you can like use it to see your, your partners by playing.

[00:45:40] I'm just saying, but you can use it as well to find new partners because definitely like today we have like your whole directory with like all the company that are using reveal today and you can send invite to the mean reveals you there basically within this company. So you could use it to extend like your you know, partner program, just sending like.

[00:45:59] And explaining about a bit about like, what is your role, what is your company doing and why you like the partnership would make sense? And it's like very interesting for you to do that so that you can prioritize as well. Like the partnership that you want to build depending on the business. So thanks to the overview.

[00:46:15] As soon as you connect on revealed before even sharing the account mapping, you can just have like the overview of the common customer that come in the, the customer and you decide that that are your partner prospect. And so how much is for present in terms of pipeline? So on the. Or on the agency side, because I know Dan that you mentioned earlier that yes, the agents are a bit less mature in terms of CRM, but again, like you should either are sharing spreadsheets, whereas their product team with the, the, the, the tech partners team.

[00:46:44] And so they're already using a third-party tool to share the list of clients of accounts. And so it's just like We have to make some thing that instead of using soft tool, which is like Google spreadsheets, which is not made for that, and which is not secure and which is not like easy to use, you should like put your CSV file in reveal and that way it's secure.

[00:47:07] And like the mapping is much easier. So again, like we have a lot of agencies on reveal and even if they're not. That mature on the Durham side, they can like put whatever they want. They're there, they're a CSV file and then start blogging, like looking into yeah, the, the tech partner that would make sense in terms of you know, the, the space they are owning.

[00:47:26] And depending on this is this business opportunities. Like the, they can select the one they want to prioritize to, to, to work with. 

[00:47:36] Daniel: And just, and just one thing on top of that as well. One thing I love the reveal is doing in the market at the moment is it's moving account mapping from what's predominantly been quite reactive.

[00:47:45] Piece of work to being more proactive and just to paint some more color on that, just, you know, I, I am now getting regular alerts sent to me on when my partner wins and the customer, when they've opened the new opportunity when they assigned a new prospect that's in our patch and there were so many interesting workflows you can drive from that.

[00:48:07] Like one of your partners is wanting a new customer, send them something in the post, have it triggered. You know send those over or reached S campaign that sends them a gift today to their headquarters and say, congrats on this massive win or, or why not? You know, oh, I've just seen you open the opportunity in our account.

[00:48:23] We have an opportunity there as well. So it's almost making it strange. It's almost making the reveal UI redundant because you're getting your information. Since you in the places that you're working every single day, and you can now move into more proactive account mapping, which leads to the proactive co-selling versus kind of chasing your tail.

[00:48:40] So reveal, really changing how people work in the partnership space on Coco. 

[00:48:46] Alex: I love that mentioned no, I mean, I think a important thing to note on what Daniel has mentioned many, many times in the partnership equation the people on either side don't bring the partner back into the equation.

[00:48:58] They don't keep the partners. Involved. They don't communicate effectively. Like if I am your partner and I send you my client, whether through reveal or through email or what have you, and that client has issues down the road with your product and you don't keep meeting. In tune to what's going on, or even just in the pipeline stages that really affects the partnership agencies, especially hate that aspect of partnerships, where they feel like they're handing you a very important part of their business, and you're not bringing them back in when they need to be brought back in.

[00:49:32] So some of the notifications and some of the alerts and some of the things that Daniel mentioned that allows the partners. To be involved in any way they want, they get the alert, they get the notification, they know what's going on. It's up to them to do something about it or not, but at least they know exactly.

[00:49:48] Noemie: And actually it makes me feel very happy because this is one of the first feature that I required. When I arrived at reveal, it was like to have like this kind of, you know, updates because it's pretty important for us to be like, Up to date when it comes to like who signed, who, which company and so on.

[00:50:04] And and so, yeah, I think this is the overall idea of reveal is like today, it's not only about like, you know, do the data matching it's really about the case. So then what, you know, how can we identify like really the right prospect at the right time? And so I think that this is basically what is on our product roadmap.

[00:50:22] So to, to make sure that we. Just like make partnerships, manager life easier on both sides. Like tech partners side at density site off course, we have a lot of feature that will come for identities. And so for like pattern Spanish, you're only to focus on like where they're really mattering, you know.

[00:50:39] Alex: Awesome. Awesome. And all Photoshop or out a t-shirt with reveal on, you know what I mean? Cause 

[00:50:46] Noemie: you did not tell me that we're supposed to wear.

[00:50:48] Alex: Very cool guys. We are out of time and I do have late for, so I've got a jump. Perfect. This has been awesome. We have a bunch of great strategies. No, I mean, I'm going to link to the co-selling course that we have in our collective for any of you who really want more of a deep dive into how to do this with screen-share and all that fun stuff.

[00:51:07] Daniel I'll link to your LinkedIn and some other stuff about you. And this has been awesome, man. We should definitely do another one of these. This was really. 

[00:51:16] Noemie: Thank you very much. Bye. Thank you. .

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